JV and Games Community Feedback

[Stunt]

JV and the Games Community Feedback

Over the last couple weeks, there has been some obvious discontent with players both towards the game and the staff member. As a CA, it was part of my responsibility to acknowledge said discontent and try to be the message bearer to improve and provide happiness. 



That being said, I went around and asked different community members (mainly the most active ones) on their feedback towards JV/The Games, concerns, and issues with staff members. If I did not ask for your perspective, I deeply apologize, you may wish to include whatever thoughts as a reply to this thread. I sent both a summary and the raw (anonymous) messages to the admin team @bls1999 @Eternal @Dangevin for their response. 



I think an important part of this though is open communication and transparency. Yes, I can relay messages back and forth all we want and if you ever have something you want to say but cant say it directly to a staff member feel free to come to me. However, I'd like to open this for public discussion.



Thus, see below a summary of the community perspectives, their issues with the games/staff, and the staff response.

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Community Feedback Summary

Game Concerns and Updates:

• Negativity in Forums: Users are troubled by the negativity and some bordering on harassment, suggesting a need for moderation against non-constructive criticism.
  
• Split Views on Game State: There is a division in the community:
  
• Some praise features like teleport blocks and desire more innovations.
  
• Others call for foundational changes, such as new game modes and creative block types like elevators.
  
• Feature Requests:
  
• Strong demand for incorporating "PR3's superior level editor" into PR2.
  
• Requests for customization options like color-changing blocks and interactive blocks to introduce new gameplay mechanics.
  
• Desire for new content such as music, hats, and user-generated stickers and backgrounds.
  
• AI Opponents: A notable push for adding AI opponents in maps to provide a more dynamic and challenging gameplay experience.
  

Staff Feedback:

• Performance Views:
  
• Some acknowledge the staff's efforts under limited resources.
  
• Others critique the minimal support and slow updates, fearing the game might stagnate.
  
• Development Community Involvement: There is a strong call for opening up the game’s development to the community to rejuvenate its development.
  
• Transparency and Communication: High frustration regarding poor communication from administrators, with a demand for more transparency and quicker community feedback responses.
  
• Event Engagement: Suggestions to reduce barriers for contest entries and to host more live events to enhance community engagement.
  

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Administrator Response to Perspectives

• Acknowledgment of Issues: The administrators recognize the feedback and the need to address community concerns effectively.
  
• Resource Constraints: They discuss limitations due to PR2 being in "legacy support," meaning not many groundbreaking changes are planned.
  
• Community Involvement: Responses suggest openness to community suggestions that align with the current game infrastructure and do not require major overhauls.
  
• Communication Efforts: There's an admission of lacking in communication and a commitment to improve interaction with the community.
  
• Future of PR2:
  
• Eternal mentions that PR2 will never return to its "glory days" and is now more about maintaining and supporting nostalgia.
  
• Bls mentions difficulties in sharing PR2 client code as per Jiggmin’s stipulation but encourages community contributions to the server code.
  
• Admin Challenges: Admins discuss their personal commitments outside of PR2, which affect their availability and response times to community issues.
  
  
  

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  Quotes from Discussions:
  "I feel like there are some people that are a little bit pessimistic/negative/toxic in the forums, not mentioning names. They're not doing anything against ToS or anything but I believe that there should be taught the difference between constructive criticism and bullying/harassment." - Community Feedback
  
  "The lack of updates might be killing what little there is left of the pr2 community." - Community Feedback
  
  "The current administration feels like a bit of a skeleton crew. It feels like it is rather just do enough to keep the game running, or give up on it. So I am excited that the game is even still going and happy for everything the admins do." - Community Feedback
  
  "I can understand this perspective, as I was once the one critical of Jiggmin for not doing more for the community." - Bls
  
  "We aren't pushing new content on a regular schedule. We aren't making ground-breaking changes..." - Bls
  
  "Communication has definitely been lacking from me, and I regret that that has been the case." - Bls
  
  "AT THE END OF THE DAY. PR2 will NEVER see it's glory days again. It's the unfortunate hard truth that has to be stated. Flash games and web-games in general are experiencing similar fates. Kongregate is a prime example." - Eternal
  
  "If you have a good idea for a contest, pitch it in CaM. Stay persistent. I can guarantee we answer every and all CaM threads." - Eternal
  
  
  "I would simply ask that if we haven't responded in a few days to a thread you made in CAM that you simply bump your post. We promise that we'll get back to it eventually." - Dangevin
  
  "If you have a question about something you can always DM me or ping me on the JV server." - Dangevin
  
  

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  Closing Remarks
  Please feel free to continue the open discussion below.
  

[Northadox]

ya it's definitely kinda unrealistic for pr2 to get constant updates like a modern game, people should really temper their expectations. i think it's really kind of foolish to want that. make your own game, platformers are on the easier side of games to develop. 
people really need to get out of this mindset that games, or any art, always have to be iterated upon, be it updates or sequels or whatever. it's ok for art to end, or exist in a maintenance state. not everything has to be constantly upkept forever. there's only like twenty people in this community anyways so if these features were to be developed i don't think they would be appreciated as much as they could be.
and hey, if jiggmin doesn't want the client code to be released, that's his prerogative. i mean, personally, i always want games to be fully free/libre, but ultimately what we've been given in terms of preservation is more than enough. you can have qualms with who's managing the game but at least the game exists and can be playable in its current state, unlike other games, which is perfectly fine. it's a nice that it does in the first place and I'm grateful for that.

[bls1999]

Thank you for putting this together, @Stunt. I really appreciate you so thoroughly collecting and summarizing the community feedback and staff responses.

Something I want to add: I'm so incredibly thankful for each and every one of you. It's amazing having an audience to enjoy the changes I make to a 16-year-old(!!!!) flash game, and heartwarming that people still stick around after all these years. I'm so glad that folks share the same passion and love of the game that I do.

Please please please keep giving us this feedback. Please keep holding us accountable. It's always our goal to make things better, and the best way we can do that is with the valuable feedback you provide.

[Minimania]

Alright, time to rip the band-aid off and just say it. I'm a collectionist. One of my favorite things about PR2 growing up was the large amount of parts and hats to collect. It gave the game a massive replay value. Then at some point the staff started adding in contest parts, which in all honesty, I dislike with a burning passion. I'm sorry, but I don't want to have to get good at xDevous Traps 6x or whatever AND ALSO be better at it or faster on it or another similar map than someone else just to get a new part.

I know this is going to be a controversial take and nobody wants their precious exclusives taken away from them, but it really sucked a lot of the wonder and novelty I had that came with part hunting and beating a really hard map once and not having to worry about recording myself for the prize. And y'know, sometimes? I just really don't want to have to participate in the community to enjoy these benefits in the game I like to play on my own.

On another somewhat related note, it kind of irks me that Epic Parts are treated in a similar way. I think you should be able to earn every Epic Version of parts in-game, even if doing so is extremely rare/grindy/tedious.

[EpicMidget]

Alright, time to rip the band-aid off and just say it. I'm a collectionist. One of my favorite things about PR2 growing up was the large amount of parts and hats to collect. It gave the game a massive replay value. Then at some point the staff started adding in contest parts, which in all honesty, I dislike with a burning passion. I'm sorry, but I don't want to have to get good at xDevous Traps 6x or whatever AND ALSO be better at it or faster on it or another similar map than someone else just to get a new part.

I know this is going to be a controversial take and nobody wants their precious exclusives taken away from them, but it really sucked a lot of the wonder and novelty I had that came with part hunting and beating a really hard map once and not having to worry about recording myself for the prize. And y'know, sometimes? I just really don't want to have to participate in the community to enjoy these benefits in the game I like to play on my own.

On another somewhat related note, it kind of irks me that Epic Parts are treated in a similar way. I think you should be able to earn every Epic Version of parts in-game, even if doing so is extremely rare/grindy/tedious.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mia😮

I both agree and disagree with you here. I think it is fantastic to have sets that are exclusive to contests, since that is the only main incentive to participate at all, since experience has become so trivialized. Contests should have very strong incentive to participate, since they are what players can sink hours and hours into, where gameplay has actual tangible reward. That increases forum discussion, discord discussion, and increases the active player base as a whole. We need more events that occur at set times, particularly something like 'speedrunner of the week' (SotW), since that will bring people back each and every week. I believe owning those outfit pieces should certify that that player has accomplished that task, like wearing a medal of honor. This is why I was quite disappointed to see the gecko set given out in a giveaway.. ;P

With that said, I strongly believe that all epic pieces should be obtainable outside of Epic Everything as well. Eternal made the argument that this shouldn't be done as it will take money out of Jiggmin's pocket. I disagree, since the epic upgrades could be obtained from difficult levels, or challenging contests, so the person considering purchasing Epic Everything would get more value, if those updgrades now signify technical/artistic competence and determination.

I am also a collectionist, and have obtained everything that is possible to obtain in this game (including purchasables, not epic everything), and crave more. I will fight with you!! (:

[Mia]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mia😮

Actually that was Mini, not me. c:

I will say, and I did suggest this elsewhere, I think it would be nice if there was an easier version of Trial & Error. Some of the frust levels in there are absolutely brutal, and people with less skill have a very difficult time getting rewards there. I can't think of a better place to ask than this thread, if someone would be interested in hosting such a contest (I don't think I can dedicate the time to it, unfortunately).

But pretty much, it could have some exclusive sets and potential experience rewards that are a bit easier to obtain. A contest that is more accessible to the average racer. I think this would help things, as I have seen a lot of frustration in regard to earning some exclusive sets. If anyone has more thoughts about this and/or is interested in hosting such a contest, I would be interested to hear. c:

[Minimania]

I am also a collectionist, and have obtained everything that is possible to obtain in this game (including purchasables, not epic everything), and crave more. I will fight with you!! (:

I'm not interested in a fight. I'm just interested in the game giving me more of a reason to come back. And I'm not Mia, nothing against you Mia, but please EpicMidget don't call me someone else's name.

Easier contests would be an okay compromise, but I still don't like that it requires interaction with the community. I am not saying that community interaction is bad, but I don't like that you have to do out-of-game stuff to get in-game rewards. (F@H gets a pass from me, though.)

[ThePizzaEater1000]

PR2's level editor could do with a few QOL things for sure
some things that seem like they'd be easy to implement are
- Always place/remove a block if the mouse is down, regardless of whether the cursor is actually moving (like in PR3)
- Scroll wheel to zoom in and out (like in PR3)

those are the main things that make PR2's editor feel worse to use (for me)

I imagine incorporating anything actual feature stuff (custom art layers or custom blocks) from pr3's editor is probably a nightmare considering all the extra stuff you'd have to implement, both for UI, in physics, for saving, etc (I've seen pr2's client code and oh my god)

[Stunt]

PR2's level editor could do with a few QOL things for sure
some things that seem like they'd be easy to implement are
- Always place/remove a block if the mouse is down, regardless of whether the cursor is actually moving (like in PR3)
- Scroll wheel to zoom in and out (like in PR3)

those are the main things that make PR2's editor feel worse to use (for me)

I imagine incorporating anything actual feature stuff (custom art layers or custom blocks) from pr3's editor is probably a nightmare considering all the extra stuff you'd have to implement, both for UI, in physics, for saving, etc (I've seen pr2's client code and oh my god)

With Free's block editor (external software) the pr2 block editor is actually pretty good. But this obviously isn't built in so the biggest downside is you can't really test the levels easily without saving, then opening pr2, then testing, then going back.

[EpicMidget]

I'm not interested in a fight. I'm just interested in the game giving me more of a reason to come back. And I'm not Mia, nothing against you Mia, but please EpicMidget don't call me someone else's name.

Easier contests would be an okay compromise, but I still don't like that it requires interaction with the community. I am not saying that community interaction is bad, but I don't like that you have to do out-of-game stuff to get in-game rewards. (F@H gets a pass from me, though.)

Oh my mistake, I didn't mean to call you Mia.. I'm just reading too fast haha. I also had no intentions of starting a fight. This thread is for discussion, so I was simply just offering my input and furthering the discussion. No harm

[Levente77]

We should be happy that this game is still running and we have the ability to play it without any major issues. We shoud be happy that the nostalgia is living on. We're all grateful for the work all the admins are putting in to this game, updating contests, bug-fixes and other administrative stuff we may not know about.

The issues arise when the role the admins have taken are not filled. For example, when they're not answering in time, not as engaged and not as "productive" as us the community would like them to be. It's completely understandable that the admins are not as active and don't have time to constantly think of ways to improve the game. But there'll be dissonance amongst us if there is constant waiting for the ONLY ones in power to respond etc.

I waited over a month cause I wanted to host a contest but nobody answered and gave green light. So I gave up.

I respect the work the admins put, and there's no denying that they're doing us a favor by keeping the game alive for nostalgic reasons. But then again, if you have the ultimate power over the game; be more active, open and engaged. If not, there are other people that can take that position from you and satisfy the needs of the community better.

[Adulock77]

Here's my opinion on all of this :]

To start things off I just wanted to say that, I didn't know about Jiggmin's request to not let other developers other than Ben have access to the code and not ever wanting the client code to be released for anyone to use. I feel it's a bit weird on his part to basically gatekeep his own 16-year-old flash game. I can kind of see where he's coming from but... hmmm I don't know... I don't think it should matter anymore with a game this old.

I feel this thread really needed to be done to clear the air a little since, even I have noticed some inactivity in the behavior of the staff for a while but at least on my part, everything is more than fine if you ask me! (Thank you to all the staff who always acknowledge the community discomforts or take us into consideration of opinions before an update is done, I love this community :D) 

We all have things to do so... I will always appreciate Eternal, Ben, and all others for even keeping all of this as alive as much as they possibly can

It seems that I share a lot of the same points of view as all the people who have replied to the thread so far so that's cool.
The way I see it is that similar to what Eternal said, PR2 will never go back to its glory days, so there really is no point in giving it drastic changes and content because... it'll be a waste of resources. Resources that can be applied to a new game or sequel, not so much to an old 2009 Flash game.

That being said... is the current state of the game a bad thing? Absolutely not!

PR2 had an INCREDIBLE run for a flash game! Over millions upon millions of plays across various websites that used to host it, Critical acclaim from avid flash game players everywhere (from multiple countries even), a literally endless list of insane user-generated content, and of course, tons of memories and stories that now became part of its legacy as a game. Anyone who comes back to this game after a long time ALWAYS has fond memories of the game. 

Every. Single. User. Which is wonderful! that's how great of a run PR2 had!

So really, there is no reason to feel bad or sad about the current state of the game. It's not in life support because it had one hell of a run over 10 years ago, it didn't become something awful by the end of its lifespan either, it practically remained the same fun, simple game all throughout... which speaks volumes for how great the game is really. The time the game had was amazing and had to end at some point... and it was technically 10 years after release which is unbelievable! Again, for a FLASH game nonetheless!

Going back to the topic of ideas and suggestions, I think the game is in a pretty good spot right now. There are maybe a couple of quality-of-life changes that can be made but in my opinion, the game is better than it has ever been with all the recent updates.

The way I contribute to the game is by making music and sometimes levels. Which is the least I can do to contribute. I don't really play it anywhere near as much as before but I can at least make some crazy levels if... I ever get the chance to do so anyways (adulting, go figure)

So that's pretty much all I wanted to say. 
I am also happy that the game at least still exists and is playable. If a new PR game comes out or a sequel or whatever... It definitely has a chance of coming back to its glory days... just not through PR2. It must come back in a modern way if Jiggmin wants to regain an audience because... not everybody can say that they made a game 16 years ago and still have even a handful of active users, making levels and such. That is an achievement for sure.

But for that to have a chance of working out, it must be in a new game. I believe it can make the transition into modern gaming because of how simple, pick up and play and, fun the game still is :]

[EpicMidget]

Since this thread is at the forefront of the entire communities attention, I wanted to cover one update that I feel is essential and would make PR2 feel much more 'complete'.. The second one listed is also quite important

Leaderboards for the fastest times
PR2 has always been about racing with others, as well as items, but there is a large community of people who try to get the fastest time possible. Leaderboards displaying the fastest completions for levels would add so much value to the game, which happens to have 'racing' in its title. There are many ways to implement this which I won't get into, but finish lag should be taken into account. The leaderboards don't have to be the main focus, but a list of fastest times/stats should be accessible for those who want it

Customized stat totals
One very fun aspect of racing in PR2 is the ability for the player to allocate stat points to the three stats however they want. If there was a game mode / server that allowed the level creator to give the player a certain maximum number of points, to be allocated however they want, that would add a lot of opportunity for creativity. It would make racing a lot more fun and versatile!

(:

[Camer the Dragon]

Leaderboards for the fastest times
There are many ways to implement this which I won't get into, but finish lag should be taken into account.

100%, honestly could just use client-time
Community is small enough and if you want proof still require a video
(It could do input verif but this could bug out and would be something that'd require more time and more data which I don't see worth it for it)

Customized stat totals
If there was a game mode / server that allowed the level creator to give the player a certain maximum number of points, to be allocated however they want, that would add a lot of opportunity for creativity.

Ngl imo tournament server should do this. Just have it display the stats you raced with in the chat.